Talk:Humane Society of the United States
April 2, 2010 10:09 AM, MDT
I have observed the edit war going on in the HSUS article. It seems the same edit is being made over and over again.
I have intervened and changed the language to say "HSUS highlights how farm animals are routinely mistreated on industrialized factory farms, a fact vigorously refuted by farmers." All of these statements are true. I added a reference that includes a video made and broadcast by ABC News in January, 2010 that shows quite graphically the cruel conditions and inhumane treatment of diary cows on a factory dairy farm, and the farmer who runs the operation denying the treatment is cruel. One cannot watch the video and deny that the cruelty that occurs, or that the farmer who runs the operation takes a very different position. The denial is true, and the facts of the cruelty are true as well.
I also added more complete information to the reference Family Farmer added, which reinforces that some farmers dispute the cruel treatment. We could probably use more complete information on the organization The American Farm Bureau Federation, by the way, since they are also a lobbying organization, as is HSUS.
I would ask you both (Lisa and FamilyFarmer) to please leave the article alone for awhile and let things cool off. It seems to reflect the truth quite accurately as it is.
Anne Landman, CMD Managing Editor
Anne, Thank you for at least allowing one shred of a different opinion to stand on your site. I would note however that the references do not support the word "routinely" used in this sentence. Because of that I feel that "routinely" should either be removed from this sentence or put back a word like feels to show that this is an opinion of HSUS, not a supported fact. I don't have a problem acknowledging that unfortunately mistreatment does occur, opinions vary greatly on how routine it is, which should be acknowledged here.
4/19/2010-->Seeing no objection, I have balanced out the statement to show both sides of the argument. Niether side disagrees that there is abuse shown in the undercover video clips that HSUS produced. The disagreement is whether this abuse is routine. Before the sentence read like the abuse being routine was an established fact, when in fact opinions vary widely and that should be acknowledged here and the new language should do that.
I have removed a number of statements that are unsupported, please do not put them back on the main page until they can be supported:
Farm animals are routinely mistreated on industrialized factory farms.
There are four refs in the disputed para which also pertain to the video. There is also an internal link. Please visit animals raised & hunted for food, for more information on farm animal abuse and farm animals in general. In the interest of space, references and internal links are provided for further reading.
Lisa, the link regarding the "routine mistreatment" of animals is back to HSUS. This page is not for propaganda of activist groups. If peope wanted to read only HSUS information they would go to their website. A Wiki is meant to provide balance, not just one side of the story. Statements need to be supported by independent sources.
The meat packing investigation you are referring to was conducted by HSUS. It is explained in detail in the references provided. The HSUS is, I believe, considered to be a reliable source on farm animal issues and animals in general. However, please visit all links for more information.
This page is predominately about HSUS and related campaigns. For more general information, please see also War on Animals and animals raised & hunted for food. These links are also provided in the article.
I have added information following guidelines found here in the section "be fair"
and here in the section: Referencing partisan or biased sources
I am strictly following the guidelines. If this content is removed and you continue to report vandalism when someone removes unsupported information or adds supported information contrary to your view I will be forced to report.
The added ref did not refute/address specific information in this section/campaign. It was simply an advertisement from The American Farm Bureau.
There are a variety of sources of information for factory farming and industrial methods, as well as ample evidence that farm animals are abused on a regular basis. As I have pointed out in previous edit notes, this page refers predominately to HSUS campaigns and issues. However (as also previously pointed out) there are also other links and sources provided on the page for further information.
Lisa L. 4/2
Lisa, The American Farm Bureau is an organization of farmers. The site clearly sends the message that farmers do not feel farm animals are abused on a regular basis. Please go and read the sections I referenced above that talk about how to reference biased sources like HSUS, my edits are very much in line with the example given in that section. The fact of the matter is that "farm animals abused on a regular basis" is an opinion and adding information that shows in the body where that opinion is coming from and also who doesn't agree is I believe exactly what is called for in the links I posted above.
You cannot simply say anything you don't agree with is an "advertisement" and whatever you do as "ample evidence"
Farm animal abuse is not an "opinion". Furthermore, this section refers specifically to industrial farms and slaughter houses, as very clearly stated in the article. I would refer you again to the previous internal links as well as meat & dairy industry.
Naturally, organizations which represent industrial farms maintain that these animals are not being abused. However, as demonstrated through numerous investigations, video footage and over 30 years of documentation by both animal advocates and others, there is certainly "ample evidence". Furthermore, the fact that you require documentation for the obvious (farm animals have individual personalities, curious natures, preferences and suffer from pain, boredom and frustration) is really quite remarkable. However, this article is about HSUS. It is not attempting to prove that factory farming exist, is abusive or that animals feel pain. These are already irrefutable facts to everyone except perhaps you and your friend David Martosko (whom you insist does not speak for a front group).
Are you associated with Center for Consumer Freedom or Mr. Martosko? He and his groups have relentlessly harassed animal advocates on behalf of the meat industry for years. I find it very odd that your very first edit is to take the "front group" link off of his sight and then attempt to vandalize this and related articles.
I am using my real name. I think you are most likely the one with something to hide. You are most certainly not a "family farmer". Industrial farms have destroyed family farms and communities. You obviously don't even know the difference between the two.
Is this wiki only for pro HSUS/Animal rights views? If so would someone please make that very clear to all the users and I will stop my attempts to show that more that one opinion exists.
I do not see how I could make my edit less contorversial. It is simply saying one group believes one thing, which you quoted from the HSUS website, and another group (of farmers, represented by the American Farm Bureau Federation) believes another.
I am in no way associated with CCF or Mr. Martosko. I first came to this site from a link to that page. Do you work for HSUS or another animal rights group?
I am a 3rd generation family farmer. My father, brother and I own a family farm. We have one other non-owner employee that works with us. Based on HSUS definition our farm would be a "factory farm", "industrialized farm" "CAFO" or take your pick of other terms meant to be derogatory to our family farm. My family farm is far from being destroyed, despite HSUS's efforts, and myself and my family members are participants in a vibrant local community.
How many farms have you been on? My count is over 100
If you are a factory farmer, I can see why you would be concerned. If not, then you should be grateful to HSUS and other animal advocacy organizations as well as environmentalists, family farms, scientists, health advocates, nutritionists and private citizens for standing up to and exposing these hell holes. If you are not sure, I can't help you. I do not work for an animal rights organization. You don't have to work for an animal rights organization to be concerned about factory farming.
What is your definition of family farmer? As I said the farm consists of myself, my father, my brother, and one other employee. My other brother also chips in when we get busy, but has another full time job.
Our farm is legally a "CAFO" according to my state, so I am quite certain you would try to use the derogatory term "industrialized factory farm" to describe our family farm.
So what I post here comes from my experience on my own farm, plus being on over 100 other farms from very large to very small. How many farms have you been on and how much time did you spend there? I have worked for 20 years on farms.
I don't think there's any point in debating whether factory farms exist or are abusive. They have been too well documented by everyone from HSUS to the Sierra Club to the United Nations. They are documented on this page as well as the two other pages I referred you to. There are probably thousands of sites, books, films and studies documenting factory farms. Obviously, they are intensive confinement operations with thousands of animals in concentration camp like facilities with barbed wired feed lots or in huge ware houses chained to stalls or imprisoned in gestation crates, battery cages and veal crates. All wallowing in their own filth and excrement. Their feed contains pesticides and is laced with antibiotics just to keep them alive. They are basically sick and drugged. They suffer painful mutilations as well. They are debeaked, detoed and their tails are cut off; all without anesthesia. They are fed growth hormones and genetically altered to grow so large and fast that they can barely move and become crippled under their own weight.
What planet are you from? I simply don't believe you are some poor, victimized by HSUS "family farmer" whose state has unfairly classified you as a CAFO. I live in an area with literally hundreds of family farms. They are not classified as CAFOs. That is simply ridiculous.
- "I am in no way associated with CCF or Mr. Martosko. I first came to this site from a link to that page."
You didn't even know who David was, but you became so incensed you referred to the "front group" label as "inflamatory"?
Please, I think its time to report back to CCF now.
Apparently you feel this site is only for pro HSUS/Animal Rights views. I suppose at this point since you are unable to accept any other view we will have to engage the leadership at this site to see if that is consistant with their views of this site.
I of course do know that animal abuse existsk, it is sad when it happens. I also know that I have personally been on hundreds of farms, from the very largest in the country to the very smallest and have not witnessed a single act of animal abuse.
Your argument could be extrapolated to any abuse. There are unfortunately thousands of cases where husbands abuse their wives. Many of these occur in houses greater than 2,000 sq feet. Should we then make the statement "Wives are routinely abused in houses greater than 2,000 sq feet"? Of course we shouldn't characterize it this way. We have no evidence that abuse is any more or less prevelent in any size house Furthermore we know that there are the vast majority of households where there is no abuse occuring.
I come from this planet called Earth. The one where I have visited hundreds of farms of all sizes and have not seen any of the conditions you describe. Not on a single one. I can imagine that those conditions could exist somewhere, but it is the farthest thing from routine. I repeat my question, have you ever been on a farm? Especially a "factory farm" which you seem to know so much about?
I did not say that I was a "poor" farmer, nor did I say that I was a "victim" or "unfairly classified as a CAFO" The latter is simply a legal definition, not any indication of the quality of my farm. It is good I guess that you don't believe these things.
What I am is a sucessful family farmer that treats his animals well. I am a engaged member of my local community, and have been blessed to make a modest yet comfortable living doing the thing that I love, raising food for the world.
I have no idea why we are discussing anything to do with Mr. Martosko or CCF here. You have pages on this site villifying these people. If you want to discuss them, do it there. I do not know them personally or affiliated with them in any way except for being a regular reader of their infomation along with lots of information on this topic.
Stop censoring my point of view. It is held by millions of farmers and others across this country.
Family Farmer 4/2/10
Decent people who care about animals, the environment, food and health issues, abhor factory farming, which is what is being discussed in the article. The rest either don't know enough about it to abhor it or are actively involved making money off of it (like David Martosko). It's already quite censored, which is why it exist at all.
Factory farms are where the vast majority of food is raised. Their well documented conditions are abusive, sadistic, crude, disgusting and unhealthy. They are hazardous to workers and communities forced to live in proximity to them. Workers on factory farms and processing plants have been beaten and abused by their own employers. See also Smithfield Foods and Tyson Foods. In light of this, another huge critic is unions. (Another group the Center for Consumer Freedom spends a lot of time maligning). There have been a great many investigations of CAFOs. Most of them have been instigated by employees making complaints. The abuse has been filmed and documented by hundreds of groups and thousands of individuals; including animal advocates, scientists, health advocates and newspaper reporters. This is not simply an "opinion" or a "point of view".
I seriously doubt from your aggressive and naive comments, that you have anything to do with farming. Most people don't and somehow I don't think you're the exception. Only 2% of the population is actually involved in agriculture in the U.S., which demonstrates the extreme concentration of money and power in corporate farming.
Also, the fact that you need some sort of legalese documentation that animals are anything other than rocks or commodities (yes, they feel pain, pretty much a given for beings with a central nervous system) really illustrates the point more than anything I can add.
Lisa, I am sure there are decent people that abhor "factory farming" whatever that is. They also may be very misinformed about what actually happens on a farm. Your propaganda that you cling to here furthers that misinfomation.
I don't need to prove to you that I am a family farmer. The fact of the matter is that there are millions of farms in this country and while abuse sadly does exist, it is rare. Categorizing it as routine is an opinion not shared by millions of farmers and others across this country. In the statement I have changed I am simply acknowledging that other opinions exist. To remove all references to others opinions is censorship in perhaps its purest form. From my reading here all are welcome to add referenced opinions, which is precisely what I have done.
These conditions are not only rampant, they are the norm, because factory farms are the norm. If you are not a factory farmer and these conditions do not apply to your farm, then there is no need to defend them. But as I have pointed out numerous times, these are simply not "opinions" nor are they "points of view." I would highly recommend that you get your information from somewhere other than front groups for Out Back Steak House and Wendy's or other organizations which exist to defend and perpetuate this misery. As I have said, only 2% of the country is involved in agriculture. Most of these are large, corporate farms. This is not an "opinion" or a "point of view".
Generally, family farmers are one of the industry's harshest critics. It is more expensive and time consuming to treat your animals well. Why would they defend an industry which drugs, imprisons and abuses it's animals in order to product cheap products fast?
It is unclear what exactly you are trying to deny/defend. That factory farming doesn't exist or that there is nothing wrong with it? Most hens live in battery cages. Most cows do not graze, they live in excrement filled feed lots and are drugged with hormones to over produce milk. They are so sick and weak by the time they are sent to slaughter, they must sometimes be fork lifted or dragged by chains (downers). Male calves are often killed after birth or chained into dark veal crates. Male chicks are stuffed into plastic bags or deposited into into wood chippers as soon as they are born because the industry has no use for them. In fact, depositing live hens into wood chippers is an acceptable and legal practice. Female pigs spend most of their lives in gestation crates too small to even turn around in. They constantly bite the bars in frustration and display other neurotic behaviors. Even some "organic" farms are really run more like factory farms, such as Horizon.
Most states have animal cruelty laws which exempt farm animals. This is a fact. Virtually nothing done to a farm animal is considered illegal, including bashing the heads of runt piglets onto cement to "euthanize them."
You are extremely cagey and non-specific regarding what exactly it is you don't believe or why none of this is really a problem or an issue.